
That Made All the Difference – Season 3
In this season of our original podcast, host Alicia Burke speaks with scholars, artists, and advocates who are advancing equality. Hear about the moments that have defined their journeys.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 6 Henry Louis Gates Jr.,
Professor, Harvard University
What if your love of history could help unite us all? Dr. Henry Louis Gates Jr. discusses discovering a passion for history, his own genealogical roots, and helping others do the same. Hear about his latest documentary, ‘The Black Church,’ the history of the African-American experience and the discovery that we all have more in common than we might think.
Welcome to the last episode of Season 3 of That Made All the Difference.
This time around, we’ve talked with inspiring people like Smithsonian Secretary Lonnie Bunch and actress and comedian Yvonne Orji. They’ve told us about their lives and their work advancing racial equality and economic empowerment. And in a moment, we’ll be joined by Henry Louis Gates Jr.
But first, a word about our next season, starting this Fall.
The theme for Season 4 is sustainability. We’ll look at some big-picture topics: from how we can ensure our natural resources last for future generations, to creating sustainable economic development around the globe.
And as always, I'll talk to some of the world’s most interesting people.
I hope you’ve enjoyed Season 3 – and look out for Season 4 coming soon.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
Gates CLIP: We're all from some other place. Even the Native Americans came here from some other place, walking across the Bering Strait 15,000 years ago. So, we... we're all immigrants, and we're all the same, at the most fundamental level.
ALICIA INTRO:
What if your love of history could united us all?
Henry Louis Gates Jr. is a literary scholar, cultural critic and Director of the Hutchins Center for African American Research at Harvard. As an Emmy-winning documentarian and the creator of PBS's Finding Your Roots he is one of the most important voices on the African-American experience and intellectual tradition. With historical and personal insight, he can trace America's zigzagging progress toward racial and economic equality — from the earliest days of the slave trade, to the social unrest of our current moment.
Gates's most recent documentary is called The Black Church:This is Our Story, This is Our Song. It premiered this Spring and, wow, is it powerful.
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Alicia: I watched The Black Church and it just blew me away.
Gates: Well, thank you!
Alicia: You've said that the Black Church is "the place where our people made a way out of no way."
Gates: That's right.
Alicia: Can you tell me what you meant?
Gates: Well, the Black Church is the oldest and most continuous and most important institution in the history of the African-American people. It's the birthplace of Black music, Black poetry through sermons and the lyrics for the spirituals. It's the birthplace of Black politics. The African-American people are a synthesis of 50 ethnic groups brought to north America in the slave trade. and they came together through the church. So, the Black Church functioned almost as a laboratory out of which both the African-American people and African-American culture were created.
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: It's where our ancestors learned to read and write, to worship a liberating God, to develop faith in the future — a future here on earth when their children and their grandchildren would one day be free. Unlike other Christian denominations, the Black Church had
<Music IN>
no choice but to be political, The Church, because of anti-Black racism, developed a form of Christianity with a liberating God at its center — a God who would liberate us on Earth.
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: So our ancestors learned deferred gratification, through the church. And by that I mean: ministers were preparing their parishioners for life after slavery, first, and life after Jim Crow racism. So the Black Church was a redemptive force for a nation whose original sin was slavery. And the Church is still relevant to politics today, as we've just seen with the critical role it played in the nomination and election of President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, and of course Senator Ralph Warnock.
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The Black Church is a sleeping giant of American politics, and its members played a key role in the defeat of Donald Trump.
Alicia: I felt like you brought all of those elements to life. And you focus on areas that have such weight, Dr. Gates, but you also have such a wonderful sense of humor that you weave through everything.
Gates: I got my sense of humor and my admiration for storytelling from both my mother and father in different ways. My father was so funny, he made Red Fox look like an undertaker. [laughs] I have one brother, Paul, who's five years older, and we would sit around our little Black and white TV, of course, watching one of the three channels available in the early 60s, and daddy would start telling stories. And, mom would say, "Gates!" — she called him Gates — "Gates, stop telling the boys those lies!" [laughs]
Alicia: [laughs]
Gates: And I would later learn that "lies" is what the tradition called the tall tales —
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: — that the great storytellers would narrate and share, starting in slavery times. But my mother also was a great story teller, in a different form. My mother wrote the obituaries for all the Black people in the Potomac Valley — I grew up in halfway between Pittsburgh and Washington DC. And my mom was just an eloquent writer.
<Music IN>
Alicia: Yeah.
Gates: She- she was a- a- a beautiful speaker, a beautiful person — and, I mean, gloriously beautiful..
Alicia: Literally beautiful, the way you describe her —
Gates: — oh! She was a stylish, stylish. But, when a Black person would die, she would write their obituary —
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: — in our little region. You know, you don't think of eastern West Virginia and western Maryland as a hot bed of African American culture, but that's where we grew up. And, there have always been Black people there in those Allegheny Mountains. But, in addition to writing the obituaries, my mom would then go to the funeral and read the person's eulogy. And it was only later, Alicia, that I realized that, my mother was the first writer that I saw.
<Music OUT>
The first published person I knew was my mom. And so, I think I owe my career to both my mother and my father in very different ways.
Alicia: Do you remember, do you remember the first book that really meant something to you Dr. Gates?
Gates: Oh, yes. It was A Tale of Two Cities. It was the first — I did all my book reports on sports books. And my eighth grade teacher, Mrs. Iverson — she called me Louis — and she said, "Louis, you are forbidden from writing about sports books anymore. You need to read real literature." And I said, "What's wrong with these sports books? They're great." And she goes, "No, read this." And I looked down and it was, um, A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens and I just stayed up all night reading it. And, then I read Victor Hugo's Les Miserables, and I read The Agony and the Ecstasy about Michaelangelo and I was just, I was launched. [Laughs] .
Alicia: That was the turning point for you?
Gates: That was the turning point.
<Music IN>
I fell in love with literature. I grew up in a household of magazines and books. My father liked mysteries and detective stories. And we used to get Reader's Digest condensed books. And I remember I read The Day Lincoln Was Shot and I was so — I was moved to tears by the- the grief of the American people and this terrible tragedy for our great emancipator. And so I would read widely. But I was raised to be a doctor, and so reading was going to be something I did on the side because my mama wanted two doctors and that's just the way it was.
<Music OUT>
It took me a long time to realize that I had been put on this Earth for another purpose. I didn't really realize it until after I graduated from Yale and I majored in history, and got a fellowship to go to the University of Cambridge. And then I was gonna come back and go to med school. If that didn't work out I'd go to law school. And at Cambridge I met two Africans, Wole Soyinka —
Alicia: Yes.
Gates: — the great playwright who was there from Nigeria in political exile, and who 13 years later — this is 1973 — in 1986 he got the Nobel Prize for literature, the first African ever honored in that way. And an undergraduate named Kwame Anthony Appiah, who, as you know, is the most brilliant African philosopher ever. And he writes the ethics column in the Sunday Times Magazine each week.
Alicia: Ah! Were they really pivotal mentors for you, Dr. Gates?
Gates: They took me to dinner and my first Indian meal, with a bottle of wine. And I had never — you know, we didn't drink wine, my generation at Yale, let's say, um, lifted its spirits in more vaporous ways. [laughs]
Alicia: [laughs] You can tell you're a beautiful writer.
Gates: [laughs] Thank you. And, not that I partook, of course!
<Music IN>
But I'm eating this Indian food, my mouth was on fire, and I'm drinking wine, I'm getting smashed, because Soyinka is quite a, a connoisseur of wine. And they said, "We brought you here to tell you, you are not going to be a doctor, you are going to be a Professor of Literature, and you are going to go back to the States and teach African and African-American literature." And you know, I was so deeply moved. They were absolutely right.
Alicia: What did that feel like when they said that to you?
Gates: It felt like the laying on of the hands. You know, it was obvious that Soyinka was a genius. To have the greatest playwright out of Africa, and then it was also obvious that Anthony Appiah was a genius. he became the first African, I believe, to get a PhD in Philosophy from the University of Cambridge. It was, uh, like when someone touches you and names you, you know? They put their finger on your forehead and go, boom, they just push your button. And I understood that that's what deep down I wanted to be: a man of letters. I wanted to be a professor. And I was the first African American to get a PhD in English in the history of Cambridge. And I'm quite proud of that.
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Alicia: It's just so clear from anyone who's watching Finding Your Roots how you also have a love affair with documents and — and I guess documents probably isn't a great word because it's so much more than that —but what is it about documentation, either historic or genetic that resonates so much with you, Dr. Gates?
Gates: Well, Frederick Douglass famously said, in his first slave narrative published in 1845, he said, "Family trees don't grow in slavery." And I became, obsessed with my own family tree when I was 10 years old. It was the day we buried my father's father, Edward St. Lawrence Gates.
<Music IN>
And my father took my brother and me up to his open casket. I never been that close to a, a corpse before. And my father just started weeping uncontrollably, and we had never seen my father, the funny man, cry before.
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: So, it was doubly memorable. And then we went back to the Gates family home, my great, great grandmother had purchased her own home in 1870. My father took my brother and me upstairs to my grandparents bedroom where we never been upstairs before. We weren't allowed to go up there. And he took us out on the sun porch, and there was an armoire out there and it was full of bank ledgers because my grandfather was a janitor at the First National Bank in Cumberland, and he was stealing these bank ledgers and using them as scrapbooks. We had no idea about any of this. And my father without telling us a word started pulling these bank ledgers out, and he's on the floor searching furiously for something. And finally, he said, "Here, you boys, look here." It was an obituary dated January 6, 1888, and it said, "Died this day in Cumberland, Maryland, Jane Gates, an estimable colored woman." And then he pulled a picture of Jane Gates, out, and he said, "This is the oldest Gates that we can trace on the Gates line. I never want you to forget her name. And I never want you to forget her face." And my brother and I stared this funny looking lady who was dressed in a midwife's outfit. she was a, a nurse and, you know, a house servant. And the whole experience was overwhelming! And there was no context for it — my father had just done it.
Alicia: Right.
Gates: So, then he shut the bank ledger, gath ered up all the other scrapbooks and put them back in the armoire and we went downstairs for the repast, and then we drove 25 miles back home to Piedmont. And the last thing, Alicia, I did before I went to bed was, I always had my own bedroom, and I had a desk, and had a red Webster's Dictionary on that desk.
<Music OUT>
And the last thing I did, before I went to sleep, was look up the word "estimable". Because, I didn't know what it meant and I thought, "Wow, if my great, great grandmother was estimable, maybe I'm estimable too!"
<Music IN>
And, the next day, I asked my dad to stop at Red Bull's newsstand and buy me a composition book. And that night in front of that same 12-inch Black and white TV, I traced my family history, I did my family tree. I interviewed my mother and my father. I wanted to know how I was connected to this strange woman whose picture I'd seen the day before. And I was able to get back to my great, great grandmother Jane, on my father's side —
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: — and an anonymous white man who fathered her children. She took the secret of his identity to the grave. She only told her children that they had the same father. But she never told them who that father was. And, on my mother's side I was able to go back to my great, great grandmother, and my great, great, grandfather, who were both, born free, unlike Jane. And, that was the birth of my fascination with genealogy.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: So, that was the beginning!
Gates: I even, uh, on a Yale program — I took a year off between my sophomore and junior year — this program was called "five-year BA" and if you were selected, they picked 12 kids, and you had to go and work somewhere in the developing world — and I went to Africa. I went to Tanzania and worked in a mission hospital — remember, I was pre-med and — an Anglican mission hospital, out in the middle of the bush I'm Tanzania. And then, with a white guy, Lawrence Biddle Weeks, whom I met in Dar es Salaam, he's an Episcopal priest, we hitchhiked across the equator together. We went from the Atlantic Ocean, to Kinshasa, the capital of Congo, entirely by land and water, sailing down the Congo River.
Alicia: Wow. How long did that take?
Gates: About two months. But it was a trip of a lifetime. By the time I was 20, I'd been to... six African countries.
Alicia: Yeah.
Gates: And then in the year 2000 a Black geneticist, Dr Rick Kittles, wrote to me, "Dear Dr. Gates. Have you ever read Roots?"
Alicia: Yeah.
Gates: "We can now do what Alex Haley did in a laboratory with a test tube." I —
<Music IN>
first of all when I read the letter, I said, "What kind of idiot does he think I am? Everybody saw Roots."
Alicia: [laughs].
Gates: [laughs] But he was just looking for prominent African-American men, who would volunteer to have their DNA analyzed to see where they were from in Africa. So he had no idea that I had this history —
Alicia: Mmmm.
Gates: — of fascination with my own genealogy. And I begged him to fly up to Cambridge, which he did, And they, took my blood, and, about a month later, he finally told me where in Africa on my mother's line, what ethnic group I was from. There was a one little match from Egypt, and so Dr. Kittles, being generous, 'cause he knew I wanted to know my African roots so urgently, picked that one — but I had a zillion matches over England! And what that means is that I am, on my father's side, descended from a white man, my great, great, grandfather, my father's father's father, right, line.
Alicia: Right.
Gates: But, on my mother's side, I'm in that small percentage of African-Americans who are descended from a white woman who slept with a Black man back in colonial America.
<Music OUT>
And that would explain why my family's been free for so long, because you followed the condition of the mother, and all white people were free. It turns out I'm 50% sub-Saharan African, and 50% European. That means that, if you had an ideally populated family tree, half of my ancestors, would be white, and the other half would be Black.
Alicia: Right.
Gates: And, you know, I'm the chairman, at the time, of African and African-American Studies at Harvard, and half a white man! [laughs]
<Music IN>
Gates: Well, right after I got these results, I got up in the middle of the night, and I had a eureka moment, I'd started to make documentaries from PBS... I can do a feature, and I'll get eight prominent African-Americans, and I'll trace their genealogy back to slavery, using archival documents, which is how we got launched on this subject, and then, when the paper trail runs out, as inevitably it does, I'll analyze their DNA and see what ethnic group they're from in Africa.
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And so we launched what became Finding Your Roots just with African-Americans.
Alicia: Mmm-hmmm. What would your father think of Finding Your Roots, Dr. Gates?
Gates: Oh, he would love it. I, and, and... in fact, he's in the first episode, because they decided to trace my own ancestry, and that's when they found... We knew about great, great, grandmother Jane Gates, but we were able to find three sets of fourth great grandparents, all of whom were free, and, they all knew each other, they lived 30 miles from where I was born. And one of them, John Redman, on my mother's line, a free Black man who mustered into the continental army on Christmas Day in Winchester, Virginia, 1778, was mustered out in April of 1784, and because of him, my brother and I, and my brother's son, were inducted into the Sons of the American Revolution, and my daughter Maggie was inducted into the Daughters of the American Revolution.
Alicia: Wow.
Gates: So the, the whole time, though, I'm looking for my African roots, and I can go back to the 18th century just by going to the courthouse 30 miles away in Moorefield, in Hardy County. All of those records were there waiting to be discovered.
Alicia: You are described, Dr. Gates, as an author, a literary critic, a historian, a professor, a filmmaker... How do you describe yourself?
Gates: I just try to be a nice guy, and, uh, make people laugh, you know. I want to be a good story teller. And I just want to be remembered
<Music IN>
as someone who loved culture and civilization. And my political goal through Finding Your Roots is to show that despite our physical differences — the differences of features, hair texture, skin color — at the level of the genome we're all 99.99% the same. And the other political mission of Finding Your Roots, is that we're all from some other place. Even the Native Americans came here from some other place, walking across the Bering Strait 15,000 years ago. So, we... we're all immigrants, and we're all the same, at the most fundamental level. That is the reason I think Finding Your Roots is, is so popular.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: I mean, your work on Finding Your Roots, it's been revelatory. I mean, you've helped us all think about our identities differently. You've brought everyone together, and, you know, I feel like a lot of times we don't ask the questions until it's too late. You've helped us ask the questions, and you've also answered the questions. So thank you so much for doing this.
Gates: Well, thank you!
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ALICIA OUTRO:
Henry Louis Gates Jr. has taken his life experience and built a career on peeling back the layers of our nation’s many legacies. And with his enduring curiosity, he shows us, individually and collectively, who we are.
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference”. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
This wraps up Season 3 – so stay tuned for Season 4 in the Fall.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon.
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 5 Vincent Beckman, Restaurateur and Worker Advocate
What if embracing your roots led you to your passion? Vincent Beckman, worker advocate and founder of the Chicago restaurant Tanta, sat down to discuss rediscovering his Peruvian heritage through food. When the pandemic hit, his work with the Farmworker and Landscaper Advocacy Project became more essential than ever.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
VINCE CLIP: People are realizing that every dollar that goes into a restaurant trickles down, across the economy in a way no other business does. To pay the farmers, the essential workers. To pay the fisherman, to pay the people that do the delivery. Pay the cooks and waiters and bartenders. Restaurants are the, the DNA of a functioning America.
ALICIA INTRO: WHAT IF... finally embracing your roots led you to your passion? When he was in his late 20's, Vincent Beckman combined his experience as a public school teacher, with a newfound love of his Peruvian heritage. What resulted was Tanta — an Incan word for nourishment, and the name of Vincent's celebrated Chicago restaurant. His mother came here from Peru to marry his father, an American lawyer who founded the Farmworker & Landscaper Advocacy Project. Now, as its treasurer, Vince's civic life is all about supporting the many people behind the scenes, who grow, harvest and deliver the food on our tables.
[THEME MUSIC OUT]
Alicia: You know, I feel like Vince, this past year in particular, we all have a different appreciation for restaurants and, and the people who run them, who work at them. If you didn't feel all like rock stars before, I'm hoping you feel like it now. What's it like to eat at Tanta Chicago? What's it like to work there?
Vince: Well, Tanta really transports you to Peru. That was the whole idea in recreating that experience through the food and the atmosphere and the different flavors. Peru is so diverse. It has 80 different microclimates, the ocean, deserts and lakes. And it all comes together on a plate at Tanta. Each dish tells a story of its history too, you know?
<Music IN>
Asians came over, the Chinese and Japanese, and all these flavors came together. It's a little bit of everything. For, for example, the Pacific Ocean’s in Lima. So the Japanese came in and taught them how to cut the fish. And there's a dish, at Tanta called tiradito. It's like sashimi and then the Chinese brought their um spices and recipes and stories. It's a whole branch called chifa in Peru - you know, it's like the pork fried rice and yeah, just a lot of influences going on. From day one, I really was excited for people to try Peruvian flavors. And you know, I just had a good feeling that people were gonna like Tanta.
Alicia: And it proved to be true — it is quite, ah, celebrated. Vince, can I ask you just to talk a little bit about your growing up — and I think your father who is also Vince —
Vince: Yes
Alicia: — as, I understand it, was a huge presence. How did your parents meet?
Vince: My dad was in Chicago. He went to gett his master's in sociology at the University of Chicago. And then he went to the Peace Corps and was doing earthquake relief. He met my mom at this party and it was love at first sight.She's from Arequipa, which is a beautiful um city in Peru. It's like a museum. But she left her whole family and her friends just to start a family. It was tough for her, you know. She didn't know the language, didn't know the culture, andshe didn't know what she was getting into. She didn't have all the education, but she's just very, very wise and sassy and
Alicia: Good combination — what a combination!
Vince: Right, yeah. It was a great combination. It was a nice balance.
Alicia: And you spent childhood summers in Peru...
Vince: Yes, yeah. I grew up going to Peru. And, I saw the progression of the country, you know, back in the eighties when it was poor, poverty and there was the terrorists. It was a dangerous place to be. But my parents wanted me to see that because it was a part of them. And to see the transformation of Peru, you know, eighties, nineties, and to where it is today, it was just, it's, it's amazing. And a lot of it's through the food. Food put Peru on the map.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: And how do you think that influenced you Vince going there that young, seeing what you saw, being entrenched in that culture, and then being here?
Vince: Growing up in the North shore, in an upper middle-class school, there wasn't much diversity, maybe one or two Asian people. And I didn't really embrace my Peruvian culture growing up. I was kind of almost embarrassed when my mom would speak Spanish. I wanted to fit into the American society. It was hard for my mom. Seeing that rejecting her culture because you know, it wasn't the cool thing to do. It was just in the environment I was in, I wanted to fit in.
Alicia: Which is of course what it is to be a kid.
Vince: Right.
Alicia: Vince, what do you think happened that you were able to then embrace the identity — or really two identities, because you were this bridge?
Vince: I would say I was in my late twenties college really did open my eyes, but I was debating whether I should follow the footsteps of my dad and grandfather and great-grandfather become a lawyer. I wanted to help people. I knew that. So um I became a teacher and I taught for CPS for close to eight years.
Alicia: Wow.
Vince: Yeah. And my, my Spanish came in handy at times and having that foundation of growing up with a bi-cultural family helped a lot in my teaching, and uh, my passion started to grow there in the classroom, helping kids and connecting the dots.
Alicia: I'm interested in this pivot you made. So you were a teacher in the public schools there, and then you decide, this is the next leg of my journey. Was there a catalyst for that?
Vince: I went to a, a wedding out in San Francisco sometime in 2000.
<Music IN>
And the restaurant's Peruvian, called La Mar which means the ocean. We were there for lunch and it was packed. My sister and I look at each other like, wow, I think we could do this in Chicago. And I think it's time for people in the Midwest to experience this. From there, I told the story to my best friend and he was at the time involved in real estate. So I'm like, it's time for us to take a trip to Peru. And he's like, all right. And he, he came. I knew nothing about restaurants and, all I knew is that they're risky. Ninety-percent fail, and opening a restaurant in Chicago was going to be hard.
<Music OUT>
So I wanted to, to partner with someone who knew what they were doing, and that's what we did and... taught me so much.
Alicia: So there you go - your, your existing community you're tapping into and kind of bringing along on the journey.
Vince: Yeah, it was hard at first. We couldn't find outside investors because no one really believed in our dream. They didn't know what Peruvian food was, but we stayed at it. It was nerve wracking at times, but it was definitely worth it.
Alicia: That’s amazing. And as you said, you're at this wedding that sparks the idea, then you gather your community around and you didn't know about owning a restaurant. Obviously you knew a lot about hard work because that's the fabric of who you are, but then you persevere.
<Music IN>
Vince: Right.
Alicia: I love that. Was there a particular dish that, you know, you dreamed of bringing to Chicago or a dish that you knew when you exposed people to it, they would understand the beauty of Peruvian food?
Vince: Yes. Ceviche - which is fish that's, it's not cooked it’s cured with the acidity from the lime juice. And it's sauce, they call it "leche de tigre", milk of the tiger. In Peru you eat ceviche usually during the morning because it gives you strength for the day. That was what I really wanted to introduce people because you tasted it, and it, it transports you.
Alicia: Incredible.
Vince: Yeah.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: I feel like you're probably COVID-ed out in so many different ways, Vince, but it would be great to understand how you feel like you were able to support your employees both practically and emotionally and how you think they're doing now?
Vince: Yes, um, at one point during COVID, I was really worried and panicked cause we were losing morale from our employees. And they're my family. Just going in and checking on them or just talking to them, having conversations, showing up, being present asking, about their family or, what can I do to help? We bought our entire staff turkeys for Thanksgiving. It's small stuff like that. It's important. And it was scary because we had to furlough a lot of our employees. They have children and other family members to take care of.
Alicia: It must've been just unbelievably brutal. As you think about going forward, was there anything that you learned through it?
Vince: Well, I mean, I think this whole pandemic taught us to constantly think about what's coming next. It's definitely changed the way we run things. Now we have other sources of revenue. For example, we never did take out at Tanta pre COVID. You know, it was something that we didn’t want to mess with, because we were afraid that you're not gonna get the same experience, but you had to change. This whole pandemic, a lot of people suffered, and I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to how our system works and our inefficiencies and what needs to be fixed.
Alicia: Your father founded Farmworker and Landscaper Advocacy Project.
Vince: Yes.
Alicia: Can you share a little bit about that story?
Vince: My dad was a great attorney. And he would handle a lot of federal cases. But his passion was helping these people and he knew how important they were
<Music IN>
to our country. And people didn't know that they had these rights. And to have someone like my dad, who spoke fluent Spanish and knew the legal system and fought these big companies to give them their wages and protection that they needed ... it, it says a lot about my dad. He cared a lot. And before he passed away, he started this nonprofit for people that are really the glue of our country, the essential workers. The people that… And they get overlooked all the time. It's not until COVID that people have realized that the food on their plate gets there somehow. And it's these essential workers.
Alicia: And they're the ones who have been some of the most vulnerable. Are there certain programs that you feel most passionate about?
Vince: We cover a little bit of everything. We actually gave close to $1.5 million to very low-income people who really needed it through this uh COVID crisis. I don't think everyone understands how bad it got for some of these essential workers who worked in these food processing factories.
Alicia: And they couldn't social distance. They had to come to work.
Vince: Right. Yes.
Alicia: There was no refuge for them. Which makes the work of Farmworker and Landscaper Advocacy Projects even more compelling and urgent, I would think.
Vince: Yes, a hundred percent. Yes.
We hire a bunch of new people because of the demand of our resources that we provide: community outreach, education, litigation, referrals, and financial stuff.
Alicia: And these are people who might be dealing with immigration issues?
Vince: Yes, these people are coming here. They want to work. They want to live this American dream, and they're not looked upon as, as they should be.
Alicia: When you look forward, Vince, what are you most hopeful about?
<Music IN>
Vince: I'm hopeful that people now are more aware of what's going on in our society. People are realizing that every dollar that goes into a restaurant trickles down across the economy in a way no other business does. To pay the farmers, the essential workers, to pay the fishermen, to pay the people that do the delivery. To pay the cooks, waiters and bartenders. Restaurants are the DNA of a functioning America. They really are. And I'm glad to see this awareness. It's, it's been an awakening, you know, there's good that's going to come out of this pandemic. And the good is always what you have to focus on.
Alicia: That's right. Thank you for doing the good.
<Music OUT>
And can I ask you, Vince, you know, you talked about really struggling with your identity when you were, and rebelling against it, when you were a younger kid. Did your and your mom ever have a conversation about how you felt as a kid and then how that transitioned over time?
<Music IN>
Vince: Yeah. Yeah. I did. You know, because I wanted to make my mom proud and I apologized and I'm like, I love Peru and I love you, mom and this is how I want to show it. I want to make up for all that, being embarrassed of your culture, growing up and making you feel bad, you know, and this is how I want to do it. When I’m at Tanta and I see people taking pictures of the food it just, it makes me happy. It's like the same feeling I got when I was in the classroom. You know, when the light bulb lights up.
Alicia: Yeah
Vince: It's powerful.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Vince: Thank you for having me.
Alicia: Not only thank you for making the world a better place, but a much more delicious place.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ALICIA OUTRO: If you're in the Windy City, definitely check out Tanta Chicago. As a newcomer to Peruvian cuisine — thanks to Vince — I can't wait to go. Also, you can find out more about the important work of the Farmworker & Landscaper Advocacy Project at FLAP ILLINOIS DOT ORG. That's F-L-A-P ILLINOIS DOT O-R-G.
Vince Beckman discovered that he could be creatively powered by embracing his dual culture. And he furthers his commitment to community through food and by supporting all of the people who make our flavors possible.
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference”. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon.
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 4 Arian Simone, Fearless Fund Cofounder
What if your fearlessness gave others the courage to succeed? Arian Simone, cofounder of the Fearless Fund, a venture capital fund built by women of color for women of color, spoke about her background as an entrepreneur and venture capitalist. When Arian turned to investing, she saw the potential in women who look like her – and she was right.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ARIAN CLIP: It wasn't just the lack of diversity in investments, it's a lack of diversity in investors. The industry is 80% white males. So, I knew, okay, "I'm gonna have to get on the other side of this table to affect this change."
ALICIA INTRO: What if your fearlessness gave others the courage to succeed?
Arian Simone is a born saleswoman. One of those kids who always had something going, much to her parents' delight. With several enterprises under her belt even before graduating college, Simone knew that she loved business. But she also discovered that securing the capital to launch and successfully sustain a great business was far more challenging for some people than others — and even more so for African American women.
After founding The Fearless Platform in 2010, she launched The Fearless Fund nine years later with Keshia Knight Pulliam and Ayana Parsons. It’s one of the first venture capital funds built by women of color for women of color.
And for Arian Simone, it all started out with the terrific foundation of her hometown neighborhood in Detroit...
[THEME MUSIC OUT]
Arian: It was an amazing time for African American children to be growing up in the '80s and '90s in Detroit, despite what a lot of the media portrays. It was wonderful. It was 88% African American when I grew up there, and it was just very delightful seeing so large of an upper middle class African American population, and I would even say some upper class. We grew up around seeing black multimillionaires and high net worth individuals.
Alicia: And how did that experience affect you?
<Music IN>
It was, it was beautiful to be able to drive by, like, John Salley's house, and it's like, "Oh my gosh, one of the Pistons players lives here." Or you drive past Don Barden on the golf course. And we didn't pay our cable to Comcast or Xfinity or AT&T, we paid it to Barden Cablevision, so an African American male owned the cable company. And we had the luxury of witnessing what that was like, and this person wasn't somebody who, who we couldn't touch. it was just beautiful. Detroit has the most gorgeous historic homes I've yet to see anywhere else.
<Music OUT>
It empowered me as a young child to know I can do and dream anything.
Alicia: Well clearly, that worked. I mean it was in your fabric right from the beginning
Arian: Yes. I've always wanted to be a business woman since I was a kid. My parents are cheerleaders of anything that I do. I could be selling dirt right now and they're like, "Well how many pallets are we gonna be moving?"
<Music IN>
They were very encouraging of an entrepreneurial environment. Our mayor at the time, Coleman Young, he established that the city contracts had to reflect the demographics of the city, So we just saw so many people prospering, and they were very much believers of anything that I wanted to do. But I was always selling things. I was the lead fundraiser for, like, the UNCF local chapter as an eight-year-old, I was very well-aware of how to hone in on the target audience. My best friend's mom tells the story about how she pulled up to our middle school one time and we were doing, like, this huge poinsettia sell, and they're like, "This entire half of the stage right here is Arian's. Arian went through her mother's Rolodex and called all of her friends, to sell to them and they'll be picking up today [laughing] ."
<Music OUT>
So I've always been that person. I sold Mary Kay in high school.
Alicia: What was it like balancing school, Arian, and all these other things you were doing, including, there you are in high school, you know, with something that's bigger than a job?
Arian: I think my mother started me off young by putting me in a lot of extracurricular activities.
<Music IN>
I grew up in an organization called Jack and Jill, we were doing community service. so I've always had to balance a lot, and it's just how things translated later on in life. When I got to college, I attended Florida A&M University, and there I went on to open up a mall-based retail store. So this was my first time actually raising capital, because everything else I was doing, I was pretty much just bootstrapping and just winging it. So of course, I had to have capital to get the inventory, the staff going, grand opening, et cetera. So I raised a couple hundred thousand.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: And what was it like trying to raise those funds?
Arian: Oh, it was difficult.
Alicia: Hm.
Arian: That's my first taste of learning what this whole environment of raising capital was like and just the limits that were there. And don't get me wrong, some people probably just thought I was nuts because I was young, but [laughs] I realized then, right before we opened, I made a promise to myself that one day I would be the business investor that I was looking for. And I'm honored that I live in the manifestation of that promise today.
Alicia: So you knew it. You knew then, when you opened, what side of the equation you wanted to be on.
Arian: Oh yeah.
Alicia: So, you left the boutique behind when you finished college, and I understand that you moved to LA for your "dream job". Can you talk a little bit about that?
Arian: Yeah. I just thought it was just that simple. I thought entrepreneurship had ups an downs, I was just like, "I'm getting out of this." Little did I know that the job market is, is unstable. So, [laughs] I went to go work for Nelly's Apple Bottoms and I was there for 30 days, and then the company gets sold.
<Music IN>
And I was in shock because I had placed product on Jessica Simpson, on Tyra Banks.
Alicia: Wow.
Arian: So, I just thought I was the rockstar there. They said, "Well, everybody has to leave. The company got sold and they, they're not using any of us." "Okay, and you've relocated me cross country?"
Alicia: That's a lot of upheaval when you're just getting started out there.
Arian: Over time I actually just ran out of money, and I ended up moving from my apartment to my car. My parents were in a divorce case, they were dealing with their life and what was going on. I told them, "Hey, I'll figure it out."
<Music OUT>
Alicia: You were really toughing it out. How did you keep it together?
Arian: My energy and my spirits were high, I believe in the power of being grateful for things. And that enlarges your territory.
<Music IN>
I still keep a gratitude journal, I still write down all the wins and all the wonderful things that take place that I'm grateful for. I believe in dancing in the rain, that despite situation or circumstance, you're to have fun. And I just keep going.
Alicia: And I understand you ended up starting another business of your own. How did that lead to where you are now?
Arian: After about seven months without a place to live, I ended up building a PR marketing company from the ground up. And that was a huge blessing. [laughs] And I ran that company for almost 15 years. And I had clients in the entertainment industry, from Walt Disney, to universal, to Sony Pictures, and more. And I started meeting people in the venture capital space. And that's when all the light bulbs started going off. And I'm like, "Okay, now is the time." I started educating myself about a lot of the racial disparities in the space. It wasn't just the lack of diversity in investments, it's a lack of diversity in investors. The industry is 80% white males. So, I knew, okay, "I'm gonna have to get on the other side of this table to affect this change." And that's when we started the fund.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: And the confidence you had, I mean, I, I've heard you say, "My confidence walks me in the doors, keeps me at the table and opens up great opportunities."
Arian: I knew everything was possible, so I still walk in that. In the beginning it was, "Oh my gosh, there are enough women of color to invest in?" I'm like, "Are you kidding me? If we can just take race out of this and you just look at the businesses, this is the largest investment opportunity you can find in a startup."
<Music IN>
So, it's amazing to be on this journey. It's empowering to be on this journey. And I understand that with power comes responsibility. We are a strategic partner to these companies that we're investing in. We're providing resources, and mentorship, and tools way beyond capital. This is very personal — a very personal mission for me.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Arian, what do you think the challenges that you've faced have taught you so far?
Arian: I would definitely say patience. I remember when I closed the store, I was just young. I thought I wasn't doing well. Now, that I'm an adult, I go back and look at the financials and I just laugh. because some days were up, some days were down, and I just didn't know at that age that that was just part of business, and you just have to ride the wave.
Alicia: Arian, can you talk a little bit about how you hope your personal story informs other women of color coming up after you?
Arian: I hope that
<Music IN>
people seeing how I enjoy life, and how I live life, is an attraction for them to look into this as an option. And that it's inspiring a new, an uprising, class of investors. There are more African American fund managers. In VC in particular, I'm happy to see all of the diversification that is on the rise, and I hope that it continues in an upward trend.
Alicia: Can you tell me the most favorite part of your role?
Arian: Being able to cut another woman a check who looks like me. To say that I can invest in our own, There's something about it that means something special to me.
<Music OUT>
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ALICIA OUTRO:
With her own remarkable energy, Arian Simone has carved out a powerful place for herself as a financial partner to women of color in business. And beyond the funding, she is laying the groundwork for young girls of color to picture themselves as entrepreneurial change makers — whether as founders or investors. It's a model that gives back and pays forward, all at the same time.
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference”. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon.
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 3 Connie Chung Joe, CEO of Asian Americans Advancing Justice LA
What if you could put an end to harmful stereotypes? Connie Chung Joe discusses her background and career spent fighting for equality. As a global pandemic combined with long-standing prejudices, she worked even harder to support Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders and help bridge other communities of color.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
CCJ CLIP: I'm hopeful that more Americans will see this as, "This is my problem." It's not, "Oh, that's an Asian problem" or "It's the other group's problem" but "This is my problem."
ALICIA INTRO: What if you could put an end to harmful stereotypes?
For many of us the events of the last year have dramatically changed our professional and personal goals. Connie Chung Joe was inspired to leave her job as Executive Director of Korean American Family Services after 11 years, and take on the role as CEO of Asian Americans Advancing Justice-Los Angeles. The organization provides legal services and advocacy for a diverse population of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders.
But the timing, she says, was intense...
[THEME MUSIC OUT]
Connie: Well, the early days for me at Advancing Justice LA were, were tough. The organization was going through a transition. We had the same founder and executive director for over 35 years. I had very big shoes to fill because Stewart Kwoh, my predecessor was a MacArthur Genius award winner and is very renowned in the community, and I knew I had a lot of work to do. But I couldn't really focus too much for too long on the internal because we had the presidential elections in November, and this element of anti-Asian hate and the escalation of violence in our community.
Alicia: One of the things you've talked about, Connie, is that for Asian-American/Pacific-Islanders, it's been a pandemic on top of a pandemic.
Connie: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's been so hard because when I talk to people now who are Asian-American, many of them say they're more scared about the anti-Asian violence than they are of catching COVID-19. And what that means is that Asian-Americans are more scared of fellow Americans than we are of this virus that has killed over half a million people in this country.
Alicia: It feels closer to home for them.
Connie: Absolutely.
Alicia: Connie, you bring so much empathy to your work, and I want to talk more about that. First, though — can you tell me a little bit about your own upbringing?
Connie: Sure.
<Music IN>
I was born in New Orleans, Louisiana. I was the first person in my family to be born in the United States. My parents were actually in the US Army at that time, and so we bounced around a lot and ended up eventually coming to Los Angeles when they left the Army. And I basically grew up the rest of my life in LA with my parents, my older sister, and my younger brother.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: I know your- your parents immigrated. What was that experience like for them, and did they share the details with you?
Connie: My parents came in the 70s when there was
<Music IN>
a wave of immigration from Asia to the United States. They had both just finished medical school in South Korea. Their families had been from North Korea and they had fled to the south during the Civil War. So they had a very difficult life, and the fact that they got into medical school was not easy, and for my mom especially, she just felt that as a woman, and as a professional, she knew that there would be more opportunities for her, and then both my parents felt there were more opportunities for their children if they could start over in America.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: And they really persevered.
Connie: My mother is just still a force to be reckoned with. She is a she was one of the first Korean speaking child psychiatrists in this country. And I can't imagine what it would be like trying to be a psychiatrist when you are yourself an immigrant and still learning English. But, she's been a practicing psychiatrist for over 40 years now. She was an adjunct professor at USC Medical School where she's taught other psychiatrists. And so she's managed to really accomplish herself in a field that was nontraditional for Korean-Americans.
Alicia: She is a woman way ahead of her time, it sounds like.
Connie: Absolutely,
Alicia: So you're a young girl. What- what did you aspire to be? Or what- what did you think for your own life?
Connie: You know, I went to an elementary school that was predominantly white.
<Music IN>
I do remember wishing that I could be not Asian, and feeling, you know, always inadequate because I wasn't pretty enough. I didn't have blonde hair. I didn't have blue eyes. I didn't fit in with the other kids. My mom didn't fit in with the other PTA moms, and I remember thinking, "When I get older, I'm gonna make myself better. I'm gonna fit in better." I look back at that and I feel saddened that as a little girl I had to feel that way.
Alicia: Very… painful.
Connie: You know, I remember being embarrassed by my parents if they came to school, not wanting them to really talk because they spoke with an accent. I remember reading the book The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison —
Alicia: Yes.
Connie: — because I could so relate to that feeling of just wanting to be white, really. I was embarrassed about eating Korean food and embarrassed by the smells of my house. 'Cause it smelled like kimchi and just wanting to be what I saw on American sitcoms and wishing my life was a little bit more like that.
<Music OUT>
When I look at my daughters, they grow up loving Korean food and we live in a neighborhood and near a school where there's tons of Asian kids. And that was important to me, to live in an area where my kids could feel comfortable in their own skin and in their own culture and be able to embrace that.
Alicia: So you really brought your experiences forward and determined for your own family, what you wanted to be the same, what you wanted to be different.
Connie: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think as I've gotten older and more comfortable with being Asian Pacific Islander and being Korean, I've wanted to instill that in my children.
Alicia: And Connie, you know, you ended up going to law school and I wondered, what drew you to that?
Connie: Well, I'd like to say I had some sort of lofty big plans when I went to law school, but, somebody said, "If you go to law school, it's like deferred reality for three more years." [Laughs]. And, and I thought, well, that sounds good. 'Cause I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. But there are all sorts of things you can do with a law degree, it provides a tool for advocacy. I ended up going to Georgetown because I knew they had a really good public interest program. Because I was not going to work at a firm when I, when I got out of school. and I knew —
Alicia: So you knew that?
Connie: — I knew that, I knew that. And, when I was a third year law student, 9/11 happened. Being in DC at that time, I still remember my South Asian roommate was almost barred from going into a club with us because she was South Asian. The bouncer was like, "You're lucky if I let you in here." Something like that. So after law school, I felt like I, I wanted to use my law degree domestically in addressing civil rights.
<Music IN>
I ended up landing a job at the ACLU in Chicago because I was drawn to a particular case they were working on involving post-9/11 racial and religious profiling of a young Pakistani-American woman who had been strip searched at O'Hare airport because she wore a head covering, a hijab. But I had the opportunity of working on really so many amazing cases. I was a fellow who got to bounce around with different attorneys. So I did some reproductive rights work. I did some first amendment. I did police accountability and misconduct. I did immigrant rights and I got just a little bit of a taste of everything we were doing in the office.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: That's amazing. And it was probably extremely eye opening, because those are some pretty intense focus areas.
Connie: You know, coming out of law school, I was this bright-eyed, bushy-tailed baby lawyer who wanted to change the world and you think about people like Thurgood Marshall and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And I was like, that's why I want to be a lawyer. So so going to the ACLU was, a good way to really get a broad understanding of a lot of the issues and, areas you can work in for civil rights. I think it kind of helped me frame what I wanted to do And it's, it's kind of led to a nice foundation as I continue to do the work I'm doing now.
Alicia: Your current role as CEO of Asian Americans Advancing Justice — I mean, I can't imagine what that was like to come into that role in a year like no other.
Connie: Yeah, no — it's definitely been a ride. So I had actually been working at a place called Korean American Family Services or KFAM and been the executive director there for 11 years and was really happy. You know, we were working in mental health, domestic violence and child welfare. We had started the first licensed foster family agency in the nation to specialize in Asian Pacific Islander children and families who are from the foster system. And I had no plans on leaving. And I got approached about this job. In fact, four times and the first three times I said, "No, thank you. No way. I'm happy where I'm at."
<Music IN>
And then the fourth time around, I started to reconsider my position. Because under the pandemic we first saw the Asian community gets scapegoated and a rise in violence against our community. And then soon thereafter, it was the murder of George Floyd. My kids and I went to our neighborhood protest for Black Lives Matter. And it occurred to me, this is a really unique moment in time. Growing up, I had learned in the history books about Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement. And I remember even as an a civil rights attorney in my early years thinking, wow, what would it be like to live through that? And this is again, a moment in history for America, you know, what happened with George Floyd and seeing not just Black people, but Americans, of different races and colors actually saying anti-Blackness and racism in this country has got to stop. And taking it from being a Black problem to an American problem, I think that was really profound.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Did you have conversations with your three children about why you were taking on this new role and, and what it meant given what was happening in the world?
Connie: I think the hard conversations to have with my kids have been the ones where I've had to talk to them about how Asian-Americans are being targeted and some people blame us, even though it's not our fault, that we have this pandemic. And that you're not in school, and so sometimes, it's a little dangerous for people like their grandma when she goes outside. And, you know, we have to be careful, but that it's my job to make sure that they'll be safe at school and they'll be safe here at home, and we'll take care of them. But that has been, really, the hard conversation to have with them, especially to my seven and now eight-year-old. But you know, I have friends who are Black moms, they have to have this conversation all the time. I mean, for me, this is, this is unique and new because the targeting of Asian-Americans in this country tends to be cyclical, But for Black Americans, it is a constant threat, So, it made me a lot more sensitive to how profound anti-Blackness is in this country.
Alicia: Mmmm. It makes me think about, it, your organization, Connie, and, and the broad sort of work you do.
Connie: You know, I, I feel so lucky to work at Asian-Americans Advancing Justice-LA because we are a pretty robust team of 70 staff. We are the largest legal service and civil rights organization in the country to serve the Asian-Pacific Islander community. We have a multi-lingual help line available in six Asian languages and dialects, as well as English. And so, we are able to reach a lot of the community members who would otherwise not seek help because of cultural barriers. What we're doing is really working on strengthening our coalition building with other communities of color. So, we're talking about programming with groups that focus on youth in South LA with Black youth, with Latinx youth, and bringing together our partners in the API community who work with youth. And I've been talking to a lot of companies who are having forums these days to bring together their employees to talk about racism, to talk about race. They are putting support to their affinity groups that are racially identified to thrive and give them a platform during this moment.
Alicia: Mmm. You know, you've talked about just how diverse the Asian-American community is.
Connie: Yeah. So,
<Music IN>
when you look at the 2010 data and the reports that came out of that, what you see is that the Asian-Pacific Islander community is incredibly diverse. We are more than 40 different ethnicities that speak more than 40 different languages in this country. And we have the highest disparity between the haves and the have-nots amongst any racial group. There are some groups and ethnicities that are doing quite well, and then others who are really struggling. People don't usually think about that, they think about, "Oh, well, I know a lot of Asian doctors and folks who go to really good colleges, so Asians must be successful. That's the model minority myth that we're working to dispel now.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: I think you've said also, it adds to the challenge of building coalitions with other groups because of this false perception people have.
Connie: Yeah, when this term was coined by a white author in the 1960s, the argument was, look at how Asian-Americans are so successful, what's wrong with all of you other communities of color? So it, the model minority myth has been used as a tool of maintaining a structure that keeps communities of color down and to keep sort of a, a, a white supremacy or a white centrist structure. As long as communities of color fight amongst one another, we can't address the larger structural problem of racism in this country. You know, one thing about this moment is
<MUSIC IN>
I- I've felt a, just a wave of support, from different communities of color and white allies which I so appreciate. And I'm using this moment to strengthen those relationships with these other groups because I realize we need to have a strong infrastructure of interracial and intercultural coalition-building, so we can respond more effectively and quickly to the next wave of violence and hate. Because this is not the first time, nor the last time, that a community of color is gonna be targeted.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Yeah. I mean, you're really using it as a movement, not a moment.
Connie: Yeah absolutely. I mean, when I talk to young people who are engaged in this movement, I'm just blown away by the way they articulate it, their vocabulary, their frame of mind. They are just decades beyond where I was I'm very optimistic when I look at young people. We need Americans to show that they care and intervene to protect all of us. And so, I'm, I'm hopeful that more Americans will see this as, "This is my problem." It's not, "Oh, that's an Asian problem" or "It's the other group's problem" but "This is my problem."
Alicia: I love the way you just shared that. And, Connie, thank you for your leadership in this movement. We look forward to everything that you and the 70 teammates that you have and your organization are gonna do next.
Connie: Well, thank you so much, Alicia. I, I appreciate that, and I appreciate the time.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ALICIA OUTRO:
Connie Chung Joe has taken this period of fear and instability for so many Americans, and turned it into a call for hope and justice. With the country opening up, Asian Americans Advancing Justice-LA is ramping up their efforts of on-the-ground coalition-building between local communities of color and their youth.
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference”. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon.
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 2 Yvonne Orji, Actor, Comedian and Author
What if comedy brought communities together? Yvonne Orji has a background that's as unique as her acting and stand-up performances. Nigerian born, with a childhood spent growing up in America, she discusses finding her gold and breaking through by being herself.
<Theme In>
YVONNE clip: America was this like, great, new world. I had a lot of extended family that we were kind of leaving behind, so that was sad. But then it was just like, "Yeah, we're leaving, but we're going to gain this new experience in this new poppin’ place that everybody is talking about."
ALICIA INTRO: In a time when differences dominate today’s culture: What if you could use a gift, like humor, to bring people and communities together?
Few people have been able to represent the special experience of America's first generation immigrants with more comedic celebration than performer Yvonne Orji. You may know her as Issa's best friend Molly on HBO's terrific series Insecure. Or maybe you caught her exuberant standup special Momma, I Made It! Either way, I was so excited to hear the story of this native-Nigerian. She moved to the US at age 6, and later earned both a master’s degree in Public Health and an Emmy-nomination. All the while, Yvonne Orji has retained a committed sense of home — in two different countries that straddle the Atlantic. Plus, she's just really fun.
<Theme Out>
---------------------------------
Alicia: Yvonne, I don't know if it's a bad pun to say I'm feeling "insecure" about uh, interviewing you! But let me just say, from Insecure, to your one-woman show, to Jesus and Jollof, you've already sort of enlightened me to a lot of different things. I wondered if we might start with you growing up in Nigeria, and what your early life was like.
Yvonne: Yeah. You know, I, I am the youngest of four. I have three older brothers. It was just — it was fun, you know. And you're in a, in a society where everyone kind of looks like you, right? And so it was just like, everyone's black. And then you come to America and you're introduced to cold. We came in November, to Calverton, Maryland. It was culture shock and it was… weather shock.
Alicia: Weather shock. Mmm.
Yvonne: Yeah, and I remember that my mom bought us these puff onesies with a hood, and we would go make snow angels in the lawn in front of our apartment complex. And it wasn't until I got to school that I realized like I was different, ‘cause I had this accent. It was very interesting transition.
Alicia: And that was the beginning of a lot of transcending for you.
Yvonne: Yes. Yes.
Alicia: Can you share why you all came to the US?
Yvonne: Yeah, you know, so, um there was a nursing shortage. And, back in those days, America was recruiting nurses from the Philippines and African countries. Immigration was a lot more open and welcoming when they needed services from you. And so my mom actually came ahead of us in, um, around '87, '88 to kind of just pave the way. My mom worked as a nurse at Howard University Hospital for just over 27 years.
<Music In>
And I think we just — you know, obviously back then too, the idea was America was this like, great, new world. I had a lot of cousins and a lot of extended family that we were kind of leaving behind, so that was sad. Then it was just like, "Yeah, we're leaving, but we're going to gain this new experience in this new poppin’ place that everybody is talking about. And we were like one of the fortunate ones that gets to go." So I think we received coming to America with, with big eyes and big dreams and big visions.
<Music Out>
Alicia: I love that you did your one-woman show from — was it the Howard Theater?
Yvonne: Yeah. To honor my mom.
Alicia: It's amazing. You know, um, last season I had a chance to interview Dr. Wayne Frederick from Howard University. And he talked a lot about his mom who was a nurse for, I don't know, 30-some odd years. There's something about people who have nurses for mothers...
Yvonne: There's so many Nigerian women that are nurses. My mom, you know, got two knee surgeries because she was working overtime. And so my image and my notion of nursing was, "This is a hard life!"
Alicia: Mmm. You've talked about having this dual lens. So, you grow up in Nigeria, you come to the United States. But you also go back and forth a lot. Even from a young age, it sounds like you were there a lot in the summers.
Yvonne: Yeah. Well, my dad was not very, um, he wasn’t excited about the America move, you know? My grandfather was a king in our village. My dad is a title chief. And he obviously was very aware of the racial tensions — towards black men especially, but black people in general — in America. And he just didn't want to be a, a, a different version of what he knew he could be at home — especially in another man's land. If he's getting disrespected at home, there, you know there are ways to correct that wrong, right? But if he gets disrespected here by authorities or by people in power, it's like, well, who corrects the wrong? And so he really was not, you know, a fan of staying.
<Music In>
And so, after six years in the US, when I turned 12, we started going back to Nigeria every year, every year. And he just made sure that we knew our family, we knew our land, what belonged to us, what we were entitled to, um, you know, learning more of the language, the food, et cetera, et cetera. So that was just very – that was his doing really of keeping that dual lens alive.
Alicia: That's amazing. And do you feel like it got to that balance that was able for him to be, you know, happy and your mother to be happy?
<Music Out>
Yvonne: Yeah, well, we're kind of the guinea pigs, right? When immigrants come to this country, they have no idea. They - and then they have kids. And so then the kids are like, "We have no idea and we're trying to figure it out ourselves." And my dad kind of took a "you're in, you’re in the world, but not of the world" approach to being in America, which I didn't think was fair because I'm like, "Nah, there's definitely going to be some things that rub off." But I do know that at some point in my going back, I also had to make the decision of, "Okay, you have to make home your own, because right now, all you know is your parent's home and that's not going to cut it." Their eyes are a little tainted. My parents saw war. My, my dad fought in the war and you know, fled, and his, his brother went missing in the war. So their eyes are always going to be skewed to their experiences. And you know, some things are going to be, you know passed down with wisdom, and some things are going to be passed down with fear. And I was just - I wanted to, to be able to adopt from both sides, not only what they were sharing, but what I was experiencing in real time.
Alicia: Right. Right. Yvonne, you've talked a lot about your parents — they're going to have their own special, there's no question —
Yvonne: I've created a monster. I've created several, several monsters.
Alicia: They will definitely have a spin-off. But you felt like they influenced you early on..
Yvonne: Because my mom stayed with us, you know, the most, while my dad went back and forth, I saw a powerful woman.
<Music In>
Like, I saw like a woman who was able to do so much: like, my mom got her Master's while we were all four here and she was working a full-time job. I remember going to work with my mom, and she, you know, had a good relationship with the Head of Surgery, and um I remember her just striking up a conversation with him. And then, I turned around and she was striking up a conversation with one of the janitors, and I was like, "Err?" And my mom pulled me to the side and she said, "You have to make sure that you treat every person you meet with kindness because you never know if you're entertaining an angel without your knowledge." That's a biblical verse, that's a scripture, but it was made practical. You know, my mom was just like, "the janitor's a human being, just like the Head of Surgery."
<Music Out>
Alicia: So fast forward, you, you go to college and then you get a master's degree, I think, in public health. And what, what motivated you to study that?
Yvonne: Well, in undergrad, I was, I was fairly certain I was going to go to med school. And then um, organic chemistry let me know that I was not going to go to med school. And I was like, "Fair enough." Um, but I didn't know... at this point I'm 21, my whole life was all predicated on this belief that I'm going to I'm going to be a doctor. I hadn't given any attention to what alternatives were. So it's just like, yes, "Immigrant parents love education — let me just go keep getting more of that." My specialty was global health promotion, so that got me to travel. I traveled to um Guatemala. I worked in Liberia for six months. And it was just great being on the ground, actually you know investing in the communities that we were serving, and real time, real life touching people um and helping them adopt whatever behavioral changes we were um trying to communicate to them about. So that's, that’s what motivated me to do that. It was also just me trying to, trying to buy time, to be honest.
Alicia: Yeah, It's like you were doing something you were really interested in, but not really knowing like where you wanted to end up — but knowing probably where you didn't want to end up.
Yvonne: Yeah. I knew more about where I didn't want to end up. And then when, you know, when God told me to do comedy, I was like, "Oh, he has me twisted. I don’t, I'm not funny. I don't do comedy. I've never done — why would I do this?"
Alicia: I mean, it's really remarkable. I mean, so you get your Master's in public health and then you take this sharp left. And you just mentioned it but, can you talk about what happened? What was it in that moment? Or what, what, what was that calling?
Yvonne: So while I was getting my master's, there was this pageant, right, it was the Miss Nigeria-in-America Beauty Pageant. And my brother actually knew the organizers, and he asked if I wanted to be a contestant. It wasn't a heavy lift, and so I was like, "All right, I guess. I'm free on Saturday. I just got to get a dress and a swimsuit and maybe answer a final question. All right, great. I'm pretty smart." And then two weeks before the pageant — mind you, people have already bought tickets — I get a call stating that I hadn't listed anything in the talent portion. And I needed one if I was going to participate. And I just prayed. I was like, "Hey God, um, I got nothing. I don't know what to do. I - I really need your help." And before I even finished, I heard, 'Do comedy.'"
<Music In>
Alicia: You heard it? It was that —
Yvonne: I heard it. It didn't make any sense, and that's exactly what I told God. But I knew in that moment, God wasn't arguing with me. He was just like, "It's up to you. If you do trust me, you'll do this thing. If you don't, all right, well, good luck coming up with whatever your thing is." And I was like, "I don't have a thing." So then I - the only other option was to trust him.
Alicia: So you were open enough to listen, which is a huge thing...
<Music Out>
Yvonne: I was all in. And so when I heard, "Do comedy," even though I fought it — and the reason why I fought it was: I was rejected, I was bullied as a kid, um when I got here. And, you know, for me, comedy that's not great — you get rejected, you get booed.
Alicia: Right.
Yvonne: And I was like, "Oh. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Not in my adulthood. I already, I already went through that as a kid. I'm not going to voluntarily put myself in the lion's den." And that was my biggest hangup. It wasn't so much like, I don't have material. But it was like, I don't want to be laughed at and not in a favorable way.
Alicia: And so then what did you do, Yvonne? It's one thing to say, "Okay, I'm going to receive this. I'm going to do comedy," and the next thing to, say, now you're getting on stage, now you're needing the confidence to get up there. What was that like?
Yvonne: Yeah. So confidence was not a problem for me. Um, the problem was like, did I have the goods? And so for those two weeks, I was testing material. Like that’s - I'm always the kind of person that will take something that other people do and try and figure out how to do it in a different way. I can't do what everyone does, right? And I figured since it's the Nigeria, Miss Nigeria-in-America pageant, let me fuse my two worlds. Like what's funny being both Nigerian and American? And so that's where my material came from.
Alicia: Mmm. So now you're, you’re starting in comedy, but it takes a while, right? It takes a while for you to get your sea legs.
Yvonne: Oh man, it was a seven-year overnight success. Uh, and if we're counting from the pageant, which was 2006, I booked Insecure in 2015. So, that's a long time. So I did the pageant, then I entered another competition, it was like the DC's Funniest College Student Competition. And of the 16 of us, I was the only girl. Again, I'm used to this position. So it's 15 guys and it's me. And I didn't win that competition, but what I remember specifically is, these two gentlemen came up to me after the show, one was Indian and one was Asian, and they said, "You remind me of my mom, just with a different accent." And it always stuck with me because I was like, "Maybe there's something to this.
<Music In>
Maybe rather than trying figure out what my shtick will be, this is it!" Because they all - I firmly believe all immigrant parents went to the same school. They - it was different languages being shared, but they all went to the same parenting class. And that resonated with me so much that I was like, "Maybe, maybe you can reach more people than you know, just being yourself."
Alicia: Well, you know what it reminds me of is, I think you've talked about your role as a bridge —
Yvonne: Yeah.
Alicia: — and I wonder, is that what you mean, how you see your role through your life, Yvonne?
<Music Out>
Because as these people are coming up to you and saying, "You're reminding me of your – of my mother or my sister." Here you are: you're the youngest of four, you're a woman who's both Nigerian and American, you're a comedian. You’re - it feels like you're bringing people together in your work, and that's really resonating with people wherever they're from and whoever they are.
Yvonne: That's, I think, a really good way to put it. And thank you for drawing all those uh connective dots. Yeah, I do, I see myself as a connector.
<Music In>
It's a thing that flows from me that I love doing, because for me, it's part of my purpose of making sure that people live out the dreams that they want to live, and we need community to do that.
Alicia: You're a comedian, but Yvonne, on Insecure, which I know it's entering its final season, it can be really funny, but it can also be really poignant.
<Music Out>
Yvonne: Yeah. The - what I love about our show is that it's so nuanced. It's, it’s funny that even though I'm the standup, I'm the straight woman. There's, there's humor that comes from my character, Molly, but she's the straight woman. Natasha Rothwell, who plays Kelly, she's more the zingers and one-liner. And for me, they — I'll never forget the note the casting director gave me when she called after like my second audition. And she was like, "Well, the producers, they, they want you to come back, but their only note for you was um: do less." Because I was so big, I was so used to performing, I was so used to "make sure that everyone can see you from the back," you know, I have these big eyes, I have a big smile. And basically, she was just like, "The character is, she's straight. Play her straight." And that was - I think I'm very fortunate, because if I was playing what's in my wheelhouse, then I wouldn't have gained any new skills. But being able to tap into Molly's dramatic side, Molly's nuanced side, while still being able to have my measured moments of comedy, that is the thing that I'm like, really happy that I got a chance to sink my teeth into my first run out, because now it, it does give me different levels. You know, some people - that's why it was actually funny that a lot of people didn't know that I did stand up. So when my special came out, people were like, "The girl from Insecure is funny?"
Alicia: They got to know you backwards. They got to know you in yeah, the sequence was different. But you seem so fearless. I mean, and I know it's, it’s hard-won fearlessness, but what, what scares you?
Yvonne: Uh, oh, my gosh. What scares me? Hoooo. I used to think it was failure. What I'm learning is being vulnerable enough to just let things happen. My parents, they were like, "We are going to control the outcome of all of our children's life. This one will be a doctor. This one will be a lawyer. This one” – you know, everything's based on predictability. And I'm entering a season now where I'm just like, "I ... don't know what comes next."
Alicia: Mm. But do you have a sense of what you want it to be?
Yvonne: Yeah. For me, I remember last fall calling my co-star Jay Ellis and not realizing in the moment what the feeling was, but it was anxiety, in hindsight. And he told me that one of his acting teachers actually said the hardest thing for her students that had made it is the very next thing that they do after the thing that they made it with. And so I think just hearing that like, calmed me down, to let me know that I wasn't losing my mind.
<Music In>
I had a really good experience. Like we are, we are a family, we genuinely like each other. We're creating content that is shifting culture. Um, I get to play a delicious character that's multilayered. And you know, especially for actors of color, that's not always a, a role that we're given, like you know, to really sink our teeth into — that has nothing to do with struggle, that has nothing to do with slavery, that has nothing to do with you know oppression. Um, it's just me living and being and, and feeling able to have agency um in the world and within myself and in my circle of friends. And it's just like, "I was so spoiled out the gate. What do I do next? Like what tops this?" Well, I get to reinvent myself. And I'm choosing to only do the things that really tickle my tail feather.
<Music Out>
Alicia: And what is Celine thinking...?
Yvonne: Ah, Celine, Celine, Celine. My mom is such a delight. It's just fun to see her come alive, now she has this second chance at living and thriving, as opposed to just surviving. They did so much and sacrificed so much for me, my brothers, their family, that this is just a joy that we get to enjoy the fruits of this labor.
Alicia: Well, I'm glad you mentioned joy, because I have to say, Yvonne, you radiate such joy it’s — it's a gift. And I feel like, between you having, as you said, your agency, you're giving that to other people and making them think about what they can do and who they can be. As those of us who are contemplating maybe a different path in our lives or are straddling different identities, you know, what advice might you have for us?
Yvonne: Well, the way you see the world is so distinctively different than the way anyone else sees the world. It really is... recognizing your gold. People mine gold every day.
Alicia: Well, Yvonne, I also thank you for your gold, because uh you really, syou both lift people up and you give comedy a really good name.
Yvonne: Aw, thank you! I receive that. I'm going to write that in my journal. Thank you so much for just watering my garden right now with that comment.
Alicia: This was so much fun — and can't wait to see what you do next! We'll all be watching and listening.
---------------------------------
<Theme In>
ALICIA OUTRO:
You can see Yvonne Orji in the fifth and final season of HBO's Insecure, which comes out later this year. She's also an author: her new book is Bamboozled by Jesus: How God Tricked Me Into the Life of My Dreams. It's both a memoir and the kind of big dose of loving advice that a best friend sends when you need it most.
Yvonne’s power to use humor to bring people together is really contagious. It's built on the hard-won experience of living in two cultures and seeing the common humanity that connects us all. She is a testament to the resilience of growing up in an immigrant home and learning to cultivate a path forward for yourself – embracing joy all along the way.
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference” podcast. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon.
END
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: EPISODE 1 Lonnie G. Bunch III, Secretary of the Smithsonian
What if finding your voice helped heal a nation? In this episode, host Alicia Burke sits down with Lonnie Bunch to discuss developing his passion for history and finding his calling at the Smithsonian. It's a conversation that encompasses both his journey and present-day work showcasing objects that tell the stories of African American lives.
ALICIA SEASON INTRO:
Welcome to a new season of That Made All the Difference. I’m Alicia Burke.
Last season, we came to you during a surge in the pandemic. And then, as now, we were grappling as a country with challenging issues related to racial and social injustice. We talked to luminaries of change and empathy, like civil rights activist Janet Murguia and educator Sal Khan, to help shed light on the ways we can emerge from it all, together and stronger.
We plan to spend this season talking to more inspirational people about their own stories and how they are advancing racial equality and economic empowerment.
I hope you enjoy this season of our podcast—and thank you for being a listener and subscriber.
---------------------------------
[THEME MUSIC UP]
Bunch CLIP: History became my muse, it became my weapon, it became my tool — it became my armor that gave me the confidence to be able to speak.
ALICIA INTRO: What if finding your own voice helped heal a nation?
Lonnie Bunch is on a tireless quest to understand America. As the creator and founder of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, Bunch took more than a decade to build it from scratch. He told this fascinating story in his book "A Fool's Errand" — which I loved.
In 2019, Lonnie Bunch was appointed as the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian — the largest network of museums in the world. He’s the first African American to hold that post in its 175 years.
His unique perspective is what we need now, as America strives to achieve greater social and economic equity for people of color — while contending with the elements of our past that are still very much alive.
[THEME MUSIC OUT]
Alicia: Secretary Bunch, thank you so much. I feel like I'm interviewing a living museum. [laughs]
Bunch: [laughs]
Alicia: I don't know which room to go into first, but...
Bunch: Wherever you wanna go!
Alicia: I was – want to just start with your growing up, your, your hometown in Jersey. As you say, you're a Jersey boy.
Bunch: I grew up in a town that had very few African Americans. And none lived in my neighborhood, so I was the only Black kid in the elementary school. There were moments that people treated me wonderfully, but I remember very, very vividly playing basketball in somebody's backyard with a bunch of kids, and the mother came out and was gonna give everybody the drink of the day, Kool-Aid, right? And so, she had glasses of Kool-Aid. And then she saw me and she said, "You drink out of the hose." I've never forgotten the pain of that. Why would people do that? And I thought that if I could understand, first, the history of this town that I grew up in, but then maybe me the history of race in America, maybe I could help the country grapple with the things that have divided us, like issues of race. So, that moment has never left me. And what it's really done is it's shaped me to be a person who fights for fairness. I'm the guy that in, you know, in sports teams would pick the worst player first, because I know what it's like to be left outside.
Alicia: What - when that happened, did you go home and talk to your parents about it? Or what, what happens when something like that happens? How, how do you process it?
Bunch: Well, I mean, I think in some ways, when you're the only Black kid, you realize that race is gonna tap you on the shoulder when you don't expect it. So in some ways it may anger you, but you're almost, not defensive, but you put on armor, 'cause you know it may happen. But my parents were really clear that you have to be able to stand up for yourself, you have to be able to sort of um make sure that you win people over by whether it's athletic ability, being good in school, being a nice guy, but that you were gonna have to learn to fight those fights yourself. So, while I would go home and talk about it, the notion was, "You can handle it." And sometimes I could. [laughs]
Alicia: Yeah. [laughs] Well, it sounds like you did. Um, and and you would go on trips with your parents…
Bunch: One of the things that was so powerful to me was um my mother was from North Carolina. And um growing up in New Jersey, we would once a year go down to North Carolina, visit my Southern relatives who I didn't know. But then, in the early 1960s, I'm a little kid, and
<Music IN>
I am, like so many other people, fascinated by the Centennial of the Civil War. I am fascinated by Yankees and Rebels, and Lee and Grant. And so, we're driving and I see all these signs for the Museum of the Confederacy or this Civil War battlefield. And I would beg my father to stop, and he never would. Instead, he turned into Washington D.C. and pulled in front of the Smithsonian, and he said to me, "Here's the place where you can come, learn a lot about yourself, about culture, about science, but not have to worry about how you're gonna be treated because of the color of your skin." He knew we couldn't go into those museums, but I didn't know that. And the Smithsonian then, for a little kid, has always been a place of possibility and a place of fairness. So, it's really humbling and an honor — in fact, [laughs] in fact, frankly, it's pretty amazing — that I'm actually the secretary of the Smithsonian. And in a way, this is my way to give back to an institution that treated me fairly.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Did you know that you were hooked at that moment? I mean, that was a pivotal moment, and then your, your life's work, your life's calling… I mean, you've been there for so many years in so many different capacities.
Bunch: Well, I have to be honest: I knew that history was my life's calling. I knew that I was just fascinated by the past. And really for me, it was a mistake! Um, I'm in graduate school, and near the end of graduate school, I am broke. I'm living on a TA salary of like $300 a month or something. And there was a returning student, she was so old, she was probably 40. You know? [laughs] And she said to me that, "You should go talk to my husband who works at the Smithsonian." And I remember thinking, "Who works at the Smithsonian? It's where you take dates 'cause it's free." I mean, that was my notion of the Smithsonian. Right?
<Music IN>
So, I go down, and this man is so generous, and he takes me to meet the secretary of the Smithsonian. I don't even know what that is. And we have this great conversation, because I'm not gonna work at the Smithsonian. I got a big afro, I'm in jeans. You know, this is just, I'm doing this as a favor. And suddenly, the secretary, says, "You know, we might like to hire you," and I said, "Well, okay. I'd love to work at," what was known as now the Museum of American History. And he said to me, "We wouldn't have any jobs there. We only have a job at Air and Space." And I said, "No, no. I'm a nineteenth-century historian. I don't know anything about technology, and I don't like to fly."
Alicia: [laughs]
Bunch: Um, and he said to me, he gave me that, "Young man, how much money you making now?" And I told him, he says, "Well, you come work for me, you can make five times that." I said, "Welcome to the Air and Space Museum." [laughs] And so, it really was a mistake, but it turned out to be the mistake that transformed my career.
Alicia: That's a sliding doors moment, it feels like.
<Music is FADED OUT>
Bunch: Exactly.
Alicia: Well, as I understand it, it's the fifth anniversary of the National Museum of African American History and Culture this year.
Bunch: September 24th will be five years.
Alicia: Wow. You know, you do such a beautiful job in your book, you talk about you wanted people to leave the museum feeling both the pain and the power of the enslaved.
Bunch: I think it was so important to really realize that we're going to have one shot to get it right. It was frightening, right? To start with a staff of one, to have no collections, no money, no site, no building. On the other hand, that was liberating.
<Music IN>
It was really important for me not to create a museum that simply said, "Woe is me. Look how horrible this story is." But rather "Look at how, in many ways, African Americans have been at the forefront of moments where the country changed for the better." Whether it's the Civil War, helping us redefine what citizenship was, and- and really confirming what freedom meant. Or whether it really is a civil rights movement that changes the way people have access to the best of America. What we really wanted was a place where you would be inspired by what you knew, and you'd be changed in a way to say, "I have a commitment to help a country live up to its stated ideals." My goal was to build on that old African-American saying, "How do you make a way out of no way?"
Alicia: And really, what you've been doing for so long is telling the stories through the objects.
Bunch: Oh, I think that for me, the objects really are the opportunity to humanize big stories. As we were building the National Museum of African American History and Culture, I wanted people to understand slavery, but I wanted them to understand it at a personal level. We collected shackles made to enslave children. To see these tiny shackles made you realize, feel the pain of slavery, but also realize that this is really not about a million people. It's about that one girl who was shackled as a child. I mean, here were people who believed in an America yet to be, So for me, I look at that um small slave chain and cry, feel pain, but I feel a sense of resiliency, a sense of people saying, "We can survive. And by surviving, we make America better."
<Music OUT>
Alicia: Can you talk a little bit about some of the hard choices involved in- in the things you've curated? You know, like the incredibly difficult decision around the Emmett Till casket.
Bunch: Yeah. I mean, I think that... it's so strange that, when I was in graduate school, one of the criticisms of me was that I took things too personally, that I didn't distance myself as much from the history. And I think about Emmett Till. Now, I never knew even the name Emmett Till as a teenager. We were always told that you were Northern kids going to the South, and there was a Northern child who went to the South and was murdered. So we knew Emmett Till as a cautionary tale. I didn't know the name. So I now am the president of the Chicago Historical Society, and one of the great joys was hanging out with Studs Terkel, the great oral historians. Studs was one of my dear friends, and every time we talk, he'd say, "Oh, you don't know this person? I'll get you in touch with them." And he said to me, "Don't you want to meet Emmett Till's mother?" I didn't know she was still alive. He brought her into my office, and we were supposed to have an hour lunch. She spoke for seven hours about what happened to her son —
Alicia: Wow.
Bunch: — from the time she kissed him goodbye, till the time she buried him. Now, I'm a puddle. I am crying the whole time, and she is just in a very forthright way um, telling this story. In such a powerful way that Studs Terkel, who never shut up, didn't say a word. And so, I wrote a piece for the Chicago Tribune about her, and we became friends. And I would go to her house and she would say to me that, for 50 years, she carried the burden of Emmett Till's memory. And at some point, somebody else has to do that. Now, I come back to DC, um, she had died um and I sort of had kind of forgotten that story. And then, the family reached out to me to say that they had uncovered Emmett Till's original casket um when his body was disinterred to be viewed by the Justice Department, and that the casket was supposed to be taken care of, and it wasn't. It was thrown in a shed, and raccoons were living in it. And they asked me, could I do something? And I have to be honest, I thought it was a little ghoulish. Do I want to collect the casket? Um, so I first said, "Well, we will collect it, preserve it, but I'm not sure we'll ever let anybody see it." But then, as we were thinking about exhibitions, I kept hearing his mother's voice saying "It's somebody else's turn to carry this burden." And I realized that we would recreate the funeral with the casket, but the story was not Emmett Till's broken body. The story was the courage of the mother to basically say, "Let us open this casket," so the world will see what they did to her son,
<Music IN>
and that through her bravery, that she basically reignited the civil rights movement. I mean, I love the fact that Rosa Parks said that when she sat down on the bus she thought of Emmett Till. Um and so, I wanted to tell that story, and it really has been one of the most personally and professionally meaningful things we have, because what happens around that space is people mourn, but people come together. I've seen many, many times people of different races crying, who ask each other, "Can I hold you so we can share this pain together?" Um to me, that's the wonders of what a museum can do. And so that is one of the, one of the most sacred spaces in the museum. When you think about the story of Emmett Till, it's a story about loss, but it's a story about a mother's love. It's a, it’s a story about how do you change a country. It's a story that touches us all.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: I wonder if you could talk about the story of, and your encounter with him, because I feel like it connects so much to what you've been able to do.
Bunch: I think I have been unbelievably lucky. In my career, I've been given opportunities that I shouldn't have gotten. And early in my career, when I was a curator at the Museum of American History, I was working on a major exhibition on the 19th century. And one of the stories was obviously the story of slavery, but I didn't want to tell the story of slavery as a grand narrative. I wanted to reduce it to human scale. So I wanted to find one single plantation that we could focus on. And I looked at sugar plantations in Louisiana, and tobacco plantations in North Carolina. And then I stumbled on
<Music IN>
a rice plantation outside of Georgetown, South Carolina, the Friendfield Plantation. And when I went down the road, suddenly, I could see standing in front of me five or six slave cabins from the 1850s. And standing next to one was a man named Princey Jenkins. He was in his 90s when I met him. And he had lived in one of those cabins with his enslaved grandmother. So for a historian, this was the Holy Grail. I mean, this- he could tell me about how the slaves did what he called a hard sweep, to sweep away the grass in the front, so there would be no vermin, so they could basically have a living space outside of the cabin. He talked about how powerful it was for the people to tell stories. And I'm sitting there listening to him. And all of a sudden, after about two or three hours, he looks me in the eye, and he says, "So I'm not really sure what you do, but if you're a real historian, right? Your job is to help people remember not just what they want to remember, but what they need to remember." And that more than anything else has shaped my entire career. Our job is not to make history rife with nostalgia, but make history ripe with meaning.
<Music OUT>
Alicia: So you, you go from founding and giving birth to the Museum of African-American History and Culture, and now you have more than 19 children um across the Smithsonian. What was that like for you?
Bunch: It's still very, very hard, because it is like actually birthing a child, and being with that child for the first 11 years of its life and suddenly recognizing that, if you're a really good leader, you'll understand that you've got to let go.You know, I've seen people who stayed on as leaders in cultural institutions for much too long. And I knew that I needed to, at a certain point, let the museum flourish and go in ways that I could never imagine. But that doesn't mean it's easy. You know, we've hired gifted people to lead the institution and lead the museum. And my job is to sort of be supportive, but not to look over someone's shoulder. I miss it — one of the things I would do every week is I would sneak in to the museum and walk around just to get kids to remember, just to hear people talk. So it is... I- I'm not answering this well because it is something that's still very hard for me, but it's something I'm so proud of: as there's going to be an America, that museum will be there.
Alicia: Secretary Bunch, in terms of what you're collecting now for tomorrow, can you talk a little bit about some very specific objects?
Bunch: Sure. For example, um one of the things we realized, as we began to look at sort of protest movements around Black Lives Matter, that yes, part of the story was in Washington DC, to go ahead and collect many of the posters, the signs that people had.
<Music IN>
Really asking people to share the videos and the photos that they took on their phones. It gave us a more intimate way to understand this. Um, or on January 6, what we did is we had people out in the street, collecting some of the banners, some of the posters. But also collecting some of the helmets that people wore who are, you know, protesting, or who were really in this insurrection. Then we worked with the Capitol to actually collect pieces of broken furniture, so that we could tell this story, because we believe that January 6 is one of those dates that will live for generations to come, and we wanted to make sure we could tell those stories.
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Alicia: Mmm. When something like January 6th happens, do you already form in your head what an exhibit might look like?
Bunch: You know, it's funny. Um, I have very few skills, but one is to think about a good story. And how do you tell a story through a museum, through exhibitions and other things. You might put Black Lives Matter in the context of protests throughout American history. So it isn't seen as something that's an anomaly, but that, in essence, it's part of a long-term struggle to help a country live up to its stated ideals. Or when you think about January 6th, there are amazing images of people really attacking the Capitol, but walking back past the Smithsonian. So you begin to think about how the Smithsonian is not just a repository, but in this particular case it was a witness.
Alicia: I love that. Secretary Bunch, if someone was doing — if another curator, you can pick the curator — is doing an exhibit on your life, what objects would they include for you?
Bunch: Wow, my life, I don't even think ... Well, I'll tell you, if you were trying to understand the struggle I always have over issues of race and fairness, when I was in junior high, what we called in ninth grade, we were asked to do oral presentations. And you know, most of the guys we would do Mickey Mantle, sports figures. You were supposed to take an article from a newspaper or whatever. And so, I was gonna do what everybody else did. I was gonna talk about baseball. My father said to me, "Well, you know, you can do that. But you know, here's Reader's Digest." And they had an article, I'll never forget this, called "What the Negro Has and Has Not Gained" by Martin Luther King Jr.
<Music IN>
Now, I'm a ninth grader trying to fit in. I do not want to talk about race. I do not want to do anything like this. I talking about baseball but my father was brilliant. He was sort of saying things like, "Well, you know, of course, it's your choice, but you know, this would be an opportunity for you to deal with things that make you uncomfortable." And I remember walking up the school stairs, terrified that I was gonna do this. I'm the only black kid in the class. Terrified. Um and I remember, I stand in front of the class, and I say, "My topic is 'What the Negro has and has not gained.'" And somebody from the back yells out, "What?" And I am like, "Oh my God. This is gonna be horrible." I do not remember what happened, but I must have done okay, because I got an A. And I've always used that as a moment to help me confront my fears. So I would say a Reader's Digest with that Martin Luther King article would be an artifact that would help people understand who I am and what I became. What really gave me the strength is, as I became a historian, history became my muse, it became my weapon, it became my tool. It became my armor that gave me the confidence to be able to speak, but only speaking through the lens of history.
Alicia: Hmm.
<Music OUT>
I love that you are able to admit you even have fears about anything because... [laughing] . And I love the, the story in the book about, you know, the day that the Museum of African American History and Culture is opening and your legs feel like jelly. And, I felt like those moments um were transformative.
Bunch: As I say in my book, when it's my turn to speak, I am terrified again. Um, tear is one of the overarching notions of my life, but a, um, when I'm going to the podium and they're calling my name Lonnie Bunch, I realize that, you know, I'm Lonnie Bunch III. And I realized that, in many ways, they were calling my grandfather and my father's name. Both were long gone. And in a way, uh, I realized that what they were doing were also honoring people who were famous only to their family. And so once I thought of my father and grandfather, um, suddenly the fear went away. And so I know how central, that those peoples were to my lives, and how I lucky I am to sort of build on their shoulders and to make sure that I honor the fact that I'm Lonnie Bunch, the third.
Alicia: Secretary Bunch, thank you so much.
Bunch: I don't think I've talked this personally in a long time, so thank you for this great interview.
[THEME MUSIC UP]
ALICIA OUTRO:
Lonnie Bunch is celebrated as a historian, collector, curator and educator.
Bunch's extraordinary life to date, and his rise to the helm of the entire Smithsonian has been all about showing us how in his words "the African American story is the quintessential American story."
What would you like the power to do?
You've been listening to Bank of America’s “That Made All the Difference”. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m Alicia Burke and I’ll talk to you soon
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

SEASON 3: TRAILER Listen to the trailer for Season 3 of That Made All the Difference
We live in a changing world, but who's working to change it for the better? Join host & Bank of America executive Alicia Burke for a series of in-depth conversations with scholars, artists and advocates like Yvonne Orji, from HBO's Insecure, and Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian. It's all about the moments that mattered to people who are working for equality.
THEME-UP and under
Alicia Burke: Sometimes, one moment can change everything…
Lonnie Bunch: “He looks me in the eye, and he says, "I'm not really sure what you do, but if you're a real historian, your job is to help people remember not just what they want to remember, but what they need to remember." And that, more than anything else, has shaped my entire career.”
Alicia Burke: That’s Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian and the creator and founder of the National Museum of African American History and Culture. He’s one of the many incredible people I’ll be speaking with on this season of That Made All The Difference, an original podcast from Bank of America.
Lonnie Bunch: “History became my muse, it became my weapon, it became my tool. It became my armor that gave me the confidence to be able to speak.”
Alicia Burke: I’m your host, Alicia Burke. On That Made All The Difference we explore the pivotal moments that transformed the lives of my guests and helped them find what they were meant to do -- like Yvonne Orji from the hit HBO series Insecure...
Yvonne Orji: I just prayed. I was like, "Hey God, I got nothing. I don't know what to do. I really need your help." And before I even finished, I heard, "Do comedy."
Alicia Burke: In season 3, I’ll be talking to people who can offer us inspiration and perspective on the challenges we’re facing and the underlying racial and economic inequalities that are being brought to the forefront. And they’re each addressing them in their own ways. Like Connie Chung Joe, who heads up Asian Americans Advancing Justice in LA, the nation’s largest legal and civil rights organization for Asian Americans, and multi-award-winning Harvard historian, author, and filmmaker, Henry Louis Gates Jr.
Alicia Burke: I hope you’ll join me for these conversations. Season 3 launches next week. You can find That Made All The Difference wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe now.
© 2023 Bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.
Other seasons
Season 1
Sometimes, one moment can change everything. In this podcast, host and Bank of America executive Alicia Burke explores the defining moments that inspired achievers to make a difference.
Season 2
In Season 2 of our That Made All the Difference podcast, host and Bank of America executive Alicia Burke explores how achievers of all kinds are adapting to a changing reality.
Season 4
In Season 4 of That Made All the Difference, host Alicia Burke talks with artists, business leaders and advocates about what inspires them to build a more sustainable world.